yaconelli

Thursday, June 15, 2006

Holy People

The truly holy people I've met in my life are really interesting people. They're a mix of the most incredible godliness and at the same time, the most unbelievable earthiness. I know a woman who curses like a sailor, but she's the most holy woman I know. She is! I'm not kidding. We've created this image of what holiness looks like that's just nonsense. Good holy people probably drink too much some times, and have colorful language, and there's plenty of room in the Bible to see people like that. We have to see life for what it is, entirely more complicated then simple. Spirituality is not simple; it's complicated. It gets messy sometimes.

(Mike Yaconelli)

posted by jeff at 10:55 AM

20 Comments:

  • I couldn't agree with you more...Much like the media has given women a false impression of what the should look like, the modern church has given us a false picture of what a follower of Christ is supposed to be like. This is a great topic...

    By Blogger Scott, at 6:34 AM  

  • Great topic, I agree. But I have to admit that I really struggle getting my head around it. I realise our conduct doesn't make us holy, but surely holiness should be reflected by our conduct.

    Always remember what was said to us after a 'missions week' at my university. Great meetings, events, literature etc but very little response. When there was some follow up research done, one of the most revealing answers as to why people didn't respond was, "They're just like us" ... i.e. they (the Christians) get drunk like we do, swear like we do, laugh at the same dirty jokes we do. Was very humbling. People are often actually looking for people who can model a different way of life whilst we're so keen to show that we're still 'one of them'!

    I recognise that Christ's redemption doesn't instantly make us 'perfect people' but surely, over time our character and our behaviour should be getting refined shouldn't it? Can a person confess Christ with their mouth but still spend a lifetime enjoying porn, getting high, using prostitutes, lying?

    By Blogger Shieldsy, at 7:18 AM  

  • but surely, over time our character and our behaviour should be getting refined shouldn't it?
    shieldsy, you're on dangerous ground, around here... :)

    Yeah, my take on this is, the more time I spend with Jesus, the more I'll be like Him. I think the necessity though, is not to spend time wioth Jesus to stop cussing or something. The goal in becoming more like Christ is to learn to DO what He DID... to learn to have the same convictions and compassion He had...

    Those outward things you mentioned are not for anyone to judge but you & Him. Where religion has missed it is that we don't care about compassion because we're too distracted by our attempts to correct everyone else.

    (Of course, you talked about "enjoying porn, getting high, using prostitutes and lying"... these sensationalized examples are extreme, to say the least. By using 2 illegal acts and 2 that the Bible specifically addresses, it makes your holiness point much easier to sell... I think the earlier issues of swearing, drinking & crude jokes are closer to the real struggle :)

    By Blogger jeff, at 7:05 AM  

  • Chastain recently spoke about his time in ministry, reflecting on how "church-Steve" was a different guy than "regular-Steve." There's a fair degree of conditioning that happens, so that we don't feel free to be who we are when we're around "church" people, despite the fact that virtually all of those church-types also put on a different face when they walked through the doors.

    The thing I loved about Yaconelli (and the reason he never got invited to my church) is that he refused to play that game. He was as raw and real speaking to a Christian crowd as he was everywhere else (I heard him say "Aw, shit!" speaking to a meeting at the National Youth Workers Convention one time. You could pick out the holiness folks from their expressions of stone.hehe).

    I say these things to address the whole "They're just like us," argument. Unbelievers don't judge us credible according to their own study of scripture. Where did they get their idea of how a Christian should behave? Well, from some Christian, most likely. They judge our hypocrisy according to what we profess! Unbelievers see our split personalities and are turned off. It's only about cussing and drinking because we made it so. Jesus said that the world would know that we are His disciples by our love, an inner condition that manifests itself outwardly in our relationships with one another. Worrying about the other behaviors (the ones that so often get judged as un-Christian) is missing the point.

    By Blogger dorsey, at 8:25 AM  

  • I recognise that Christ's redemption doesn't instantly make us 'perfect people' but surely, over time our character and our behaviour should be getting refined shouldn't it? Can a person confess Christ with their mouth but still spend a lifetime enjoying porn, getting high, using prostitutes, lying?

    Shieldsy, the more pertinent question is, Can a person confess Christ with their mouth and neglect the poor, the orphan, the widow, and fail to love their neighbor as themselves?

    What people hate in Christians is not their lack of holiness but their hypocrisy and holier-than-thou attitudes. People who preach morality but do the same things the heathen do.

    This gets into the inside-of-the-bowl/ outside-of-the-bowl challenge. Too many Christians focus on the outside of the bowl--don't drink, swear, watch R-rate movies, etc.--and neglect the inside of the bowl, actually becoming dicks to their neighbors even as they try to "uphold moral standards."

    A great many Christians are just insufferable. Preachy, judgmental, and angry. And frankly, afraid on some level to associate with non-Christians on any meaningful level.

    People want to be loved and to see others loving. Have we forgotten that this is how they will know us-by our love for each other?

    By Blogger Zeke, at 8:28 AM  

  • Zeke: I agree 100% with everything you just said. But I don't see it as an either/or issue. I guess what I'm saying is that once the inside-of-the-bowl is getting cleaner, shouldn't it start to make a difference to the outside too?

    Dorsey: "Where did they get their idea of how a Christian should behave? Well, from some Christian, most likely." Maybe. But here's my experience ... I'm a children's worker, working 90% of the time with children who have absolutely no other encounter with church or christianity. Yet they seem to have higher expectations of "Christianity" than I do! It's almost as if they have this innate idea of what "Christian" behaviour should look like ... fairness, honesty, purity of speech (they pick you up on the mildest of bad language!!), generous etc etc. And whilst you & I know that's not what makes us a Christian, I do find it interesting that there is this expectation from them for me to be different from other adults they encounter. Where this expectation comes from I don't know. Given the kids I work with I'm pretty certain it isn't from any Christian. Maybe I should blow that expectation out of the water but I'm just not so sure I should be doing. Like I say, I actually get the feeling that people are often looking for someone who is 'different' from them whilst we're so busy trying to prove that we're not!!

    Señor jefe: "these sensationalized examples are extreme, to say the least. By using 2 illegal acts and 2 that the Bible specifically addresses, it makes your holiness point much easier to sell". Maybe they are a little extreme, but doesn't the fact that you classify them as such show that you think there must be a line of 'acceptable' behaviour somewhere. And actually if we're prepared to tolerate blue jokes, then why not enjoy a little bit of softcore? The majority of guys I know would think it a bit weird for a man not to want to look at porn! Getting high ... it's nearly as common as drunk, so is that something that is compatible with holiness? [None of these are rhetorical questions by the way!]. I think the Bible deals specifically with all the behaviours we've mentioned not just 2 of them ... our speech in particular is something that is referred to throughout scripture.

    I guess the only comforting thing in all this is the fact that St Pauls seemed to have the same dilema too! One moment he's telling people off for not letting others enjoy their new found freedom in Christ, then giving long lists of behaviour that he thinks unbecoming for a follower of Christ (including orgies!).

    By Blogger Shieldsy, at 7:55 AM  

  • Shieldsy, you're approaching this from the wrong angle.

    I agree with you that cleaning the inside of the cup will make the outside clean, too. But (it appears, at least) you suggest the outer cleanliness is evidence of regeneration. There we disagree. The only qualities that scripture regards as sufficient evidence that the inside of the bowl is clean are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. It's worth noting, too, that, without love, nothing has merit.

    Certainly there is right and there is wrong. But where I think we differ most is in your apparent belief that you are capable or qualified to call it out in others. I dont' really understand what drives that impulse in you.

    You imply that drunkenness is just a step away from getting high. Well, who among us has endorsed either of those things? You further suggest that we think lying and prostitution is ok. How do you come to such a conclusion?

    It's such erroneous assumptions that affect your credibility in these discussions. That said, I think it would be useful if you put some of these things on your blog space so they could be explored further.

    By Blogger dorsey, at 12:40 PM  

  • Hi Dorsey, I'm trying not to make assumptions but teasing out arguments in order to get a better grasp of things. I'm not implying that anyone here personally condones prostitution or lying, but the basis of this thread is that it's still possible to be a habitual swearer, or drunkard yet live a holy life. So why not a liar or a user of soft drugs?

    See, I personally have more sympathy for people using porn than I do for those who drink too much ... but that's because I know where my own weakness is! And some of the most holy people in the Bible used prostitutes or had their own legitimate brothels (ie. hareems). For Christ's sake, surely we'd pull another Christian up if we knew they were unashamedly using porn or using prostitutes. After all that's what the apostle Paul did on lots of occassions, listing lots of BEHAVIOUR he thought was unacceptable ... and at the same time he was the one that expounded the gospel of free grace. Paradox?!

    I know the most insidious sins are deeply rooted and often invisible ... pride, hate, envy, greed etc. But whilst God looks at the heart, isn't the rest of the world simply judging us (and Christ) on the fruit? I'm not suggesting we deal with some sins and not the other, but conversely we can't condone some and not the other either can we? And actually it's my experience that God often strips away things layer by layer ... dealing with the 'easy' sins first (i.e. the 'externals') before revealing something even deeper. That's why I find it surprising/challenging to think that God had dealt with someone's deep rooted pride/greed/lust but never made them deal with something much simpler (e.g. cursing) first.

    Messy & complicated like the original post said. Just trying to get my head around it!

    PS - Shan't start my own blog. (a) Wife would kill me for wasting even more time on the net! (b) Got nothing particularly new or original to say ... not that that stops most people (c) prefer engaging with people that I wouldn't normally have chance to and most blogs seem to attract like minded people (like most churches actually!).

    By Blogger Shieldsy, at 3:57 PM  

  • but doesn't the fact that you classify them as such show that you think there must be a line of 'acceptable' behaviour somewhere.
    No, I am using the fact that the law of the US determines 2 of these acts as illegal. And the other 2 are specifically addressed by the Bible.

    So I am not creating some strange classification. I am using the benchmark of legal action and scriptural action.

    If you have a problem with that, I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about.

    And actually if we're prepared to tolerate blue jokes, then why not enjoy a little bit of softcore?
    Obviously you have no self-control if that occurs in your life.

    I think the Bible deals specifically with all the behaviours we've mentioned not just 2 of them ...
    Prove it.

    By Blogger jeff, at 5:18 PM  

  • Maybe it's just me, but I still think you're carrying the examples to extreme. Someone who "probably drinks too much sometimes," does not equal "drunkard."

    I think the tempering element that's missing here is relationship, the absence of which makes your ideas very hard for me to swallow. My brother, Senor Jefe, and I are very close. As such, if I had one or two beers too many (I truthfully cannot recall the last time I was intoxicated), I would expect that he would say something, and that I would likely accept his rebuke. If I found out that he was downloading porn, I'd certainly say, "Dude, what the f*ck?" (let's save language for another post, LOL).

    However, if you slammed me for over-imbibing, or tried to offer some blanket-condemnation to all drinkers everywhere, I'd likely tell you where to go. Jeff has permission to get into my business to the degree that relationship involves a covenant. You and I do not enjoy such communion (not that we wouldn't, we just don't, you understand).

    I guess that's where I'm coming from with my apparent resistance to drawing the sin line in the sand. I don't know you well enough to draw the line for you, and have to trust the Lord to speak to your heart. And vice versa.

    Regarding Paul, I think he offered grace first. I do not know at what point he withdrew it, if at all.

    By Blogger dorsey, at 7:40 PM  

  • If I found out that he was downloading porn, I'd certainly say, "Dude, what the f*ck?"
    ?????
    You usually say, "Dude, send me a link..."

    :)

    By Blogger jeff, at 8:11 PM  

  • Agree that it's friendship that allows individuals to challenge/re*uke each other (my 'letter-after-A' key isnt working!!). That's great, *ut do you think that the preacher/teacher/leader/'church' should remain quiet or should they point out certain *ehaviours as *eing incompata*le with living as a follower of Jesus? As I keep pointing out, that's exactly what the apostle Paul did and yet he was a*le to preach radical grace without seeming contradiction (though you can almost detect the frustration in his tone IMHO!). If he were preaching today would we condemn Paul for *eing judgemental, hypocritical, self-righteous, for drawing 'sin lines in the sand'? [Again, these aren't meant to *e rhetorical questions!].

    By Blogger Shieldsy, at 11:53 PM  

  • *ut do you think that the preacher/teacher/leader/'church' should remain quiet or should they point out certain *ehaviours as *eing incompata*le with living as a follower of Jesus?
    I think preachers should do what's in their hearts to do. If that's confronting 'sin', then so be it. Allow people to respond as they wish.

    As a preacher, their responsibility is not necessarily to "prophesy smooth things" to soothe the people's ears. It's to speak within their paradigm. And I agree, that's what Paul did.

    But when they start naming specific sins based on social mores and not scriptural mandate, they shouldn't be surprised when they catch flack for it.

    By Blogger jeff, at 5:19 AM  

  • Yeah, I think Jeff pretty much summed up how I feel. It just seems like whenever I say "You deal with your sins as the Spirit deals with you, and let that guy likewise deal with his sins," I immediately get accused of ignoring sin and watering down the gospel.

    I sense Paul's frustration as well. The guy spent half his life as a student of the law. I'm sure there were times when he wanted to chuck grace and start cracking heads. Grace is not the natural order of things, but it is what Christ demands. Scripture doesn't mandate this, but I think a good rule of thumb is to live as if you were going to receive only as much grace as you extend to others.

    By Blogger dorsey, at 8:57 AM  

  • I had a gay surgery professor in medical school who was one of the first female graduates of our school back in the late 40s. She was old, mean as a junkyard dog and would curse viciously at us worthless medical students if we screwed anything up in her OR. She scared me to death.

    She and her partner, well into their 70s, repeatedly adopted children from orphanages oversees, brought them to the states, and raised them in a loving home.

    That was years ago, and I'm sure she's dead now. But she's still my picture of holiness.

    By Blogger texags, at 6:21 PM  

  • Good, altruistic, worthy, commendable, philanthropic, loving, admirable ... yes, definitely. Holy ... set apart for God?

    Don't want to get into word games but surely there something distinctive about holiness as opposed to any of the other words I mentioned.

    By Blogger Shieldsy, at 5:56 AM  

  • "Where religion has missed it is that we don't care about compassion because we're too distracted by our attempts to correct everyone else."

    Yep!
    (Nothing needs changed like other people's habits. Mark Twain)

    By Blogger julie, at 7:55 AM  

  • I wrote something about the acceptability of "cussing" specifically that might shed a little light on why some of us Christians don't put it in the same category as prostitution and theft. I wrote it after a girl at a "Christian college" told me my music kicked her ass. I was a little surprised by the such a compliment and had to process it a little bit. Here's a taste of that processing.. O told the story of the girl and her comment and then wrote...

    "There's no appendix in the back of my bible listing the "bad" words. Is there one in yours? God never wrote such a list. I know this. But once I didn't. I used to keep a list of my own. You may have a list too. You may have used the words on that list before you believed the story of Jesus to be true and you may now associate those words with that old pre-faith life of yours. And you may be shocked, even sickened and angered, at my using them because of that, because they belong to that old life and not the new life you and I have in common because of our shared faith. Those words trip you now. Even a three letter one.

    Tonight I used a word on your list when quoting a girl from tonight's show because the word was humorous and profound all at once - for me. See, I'm used to playing at "Christian" colleges and universities where church going people like me sit calmly in their seats and seem at times to be tolerating my faith more than celebrating it along with me. I'm grateful for the opportunities I have weekly to be on these campuses but honestly the passion isn't too palpable much of the time - nor is it all that evident in my own expression and words off stage. And maybe that's fine. Maybe faith isn't supposed to be something that veers us out of control, that's always written on our face, that jerks us from our staid posture and undermines our attempts at acceptable eloquence."

    You can read the rest here if you're interested.

    Great blog. I loved Mike.

    -Shaun

    By Blogger Shaun Groves, at 7:02 PM  

  • Im just a drive by reader - but I would like to say that I love this post!!

    To may times we make Religion this issue and not the compassion of Christ. Jesus died for everyone as they are.

    I really believe God is just excited you chose Him back - even if you added a "bad word" in the prayer, He would still accept it. God is love! We have no grasp as to how far the love reaches!

    By Blogger shefrog77, at 7:02 PM  

  • Hey Shaun. Thanks for dropping by. Don't be a stranger. There'll be plenty more discussion coming over thre next few months...

    By Blogger jeff, at 10:21 PM  

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